June 26, 2007 2:48 PM PDT

The suckitude of shuffle

(Credit: CNET Networks/Corinne Schulze)

I'm a big fan of Creative MP3 players--no surprise there. The Zen line offers cute and colorful designs, customizable user interfaces that are also a snap to navigate, and--my no. 1 requirement--stellar audio quality. For all of these reasons, I have chosen to use Creative's devices for my personal listening the majority of the time. As such, I've spent a lot of hours listening to music on a variety of Zens and there is one thing that remains pretty constant: the shuffle feature on these players sucks (for lack of a better word). And this slightly annoying characteristic is not specific to me, either: several of my friends use Creative players and have noticed the same thing. So what gives? As it turns out, a "computer algorithm for randomizing information can never be truly random". "True" randomness requires two things: each and every song on the device must be played the same number of times in the long run, and you must not be able to predict the order of the songs. Computer software--such as that which makes an MP3 player work--can never meet both requirements at once. Confused yet? Yeah, me too--I'm a writer for a reason. For a more detailed explanation, check out this article from The Numbers Guy over at the Wall Street Journal.

In any case, that explanation seems to account for the suckitude of shuffle on my Creative Zen V Plus. This 2GB player, which is packed with 495 tracks, highly favors the same 20 to 25 tracks (see below for a sample list)--regardless of rating. Actually, unlike the iPod, the Zen doesn't take rating into account and in any case, I don't have time to rate songs, so it hardly matters. It appears that the algorithm used by the player has tagged particular songs that it is going to insert again and again in order to create a "randomized" listening experience. Or that's what I think anyway--as previously noted, numbers are not my strong suit.

Still, this doesn't explain my other shuffle conundrum: the Zen V Plus also plays four or five artists over and over, despite the fact that I have 49 artists on the device and none has more than one album. Apparently, the player just really likes Z-Trip, Fleetwood Mac, Faith No More, Scissor Sisters, and--especially--Dredg. This last one is especially interesting in that my friend with an 8GB Zen Micro Photo also experiences the "Dredg phenomenon," with songs by that artist sometimes inserting themselves every third or fourth song (out of more than 1200 tracks in her case). The Zen players LOVE Dredg (you should too--check 'em out). I've also heard about this happening on an iPod Nano, though I can't personally confirm it.

So I know I'm not the only one to suffer from the suckitude of shuffle: how about the rest of you? What player do you use and how's the shuffle feature holding up? Would an MP3 player's shuffling aptitude affect your purchasing decision? For my part, I'm hanging onto the Zen V Plus. It has too many other appealing features for me to leave it by the wayside. Besides, I'm fine with riding the track-forward function when necessary--at least for the time being.

What my Zen loves: A playlist

  • La Funk Mob: Motorbass Get Phunked Up
  • Chemical Brothers: Dig Your Own Hole
  • Scissor Sisters: Music is the Victim
  • Alexkid: Pick It Up
  • Don Henley: New York Minute
  • Eminem: 'Til I Collapse
  • MC Solaar: Jardin D'Eden
  • Jimmy Eat World: A Praise Chorus
  • Britney Spears: Me Against The Music (Rishi Rich's Desi Kulcha Punjabi Club Mix)
  • Deftones: To Have & To Hold [Depeche Mode Tribute]
  • Metallica: Sad But True
  • Pornotanz: Cysex
  • Chemical Brothers: It Doesn't Matter
  • Tom Petty: Runnin' Down a Dream
  • MC Solaar: Au Pays De Ghandi
  • Veruca Salt: Somebody [Depeche Mode Tribute]


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Add a Comment (Log in or register) 23 comments (Showing first 20 comments)
Whoa, I've noticed the same thing...
by tmoynihan June 26, 2007 2:57 PM PDT
...on my Creative Zen Vision:M.

Its favorite shuffle artists are Quasimoto, MF DOOM, Wilco, and The Fiery Furnaces.

Before it died a premature death, my iPod's favorite artists were Led Zeppelin and the White Stripes.
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You're not the only ones...
by JimmyHoffa June 26, 2007 3:22 PM PDT
...and it's not just Creative that has its fave artists. I have a relatively new iPod Nano (8GB) that, despite being nearly full (nearly 2K songs), has a marked preference for Thelonious Monk and the Young Fresh Fellows. Not only that, it seems to always play a Monk tune about the time I get to the Duboce Tunnel on the N Judah on the way home every night. Random? I have my doubts.

Not that I'm complaining. A little "Ruby, My Dear" or "Ugly Beauty" can go a long way toward calming my nerves after a long day here at the Internet Farm.
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There's Still Hope
by cschulze June 26, 2007 3:34 PM PDT
Tomorrow will be 18 years to the day since Don Henley released "The End of the Innocence" on which "New York Minute" appeared. That bleak milestone aside, remember, it's still not too late to purge that song from your MP3 player. Be strong. Snip that unsightly Henley ponytail from your audio device.
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my ipod shuffle...
by boopiejones June 26, 2007 3:40 PM PDT
seems to shuffle fairly randomly. where it is not random is when using the autofill feature. i plug it into my computer and every time it picks very similar playlists from my 5,000+ songs. it seems to favor my 2 year old's baby einstein stuff. also, while it supposedly picks the music off the computer at random, if i play the music in order rather than in shuffle mode there are many songs clumped together: two from one artist, one baby einstein, two more from the first artist, etc...
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Yes! I am not crazy!
by Mr. Merkin June 26, 2007 4:00 PM PDT
My Zen plays the same songs every morning and evening when I am on the train, and I have over 1000 on there. For some reason I get the same playlist again and again and some songs never come on unless I select them specifically. There will be times when I will be scrolling through my track list and see a song and be surprised that it is on there since I have not hit it on shuffle in so long. I don't know why they can't fix the software, but it is a major pain in the a$$.
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Upstage-Sandisk Sansa e260
by mrwilliams20 June 26, 2007 4:14 PM PDT
my 4 gig sansa was actually good at shuffling songs. i didnt feel like its kept playin the same thing over and over. but i recently tried using upstage as a music player and its no good. basically it pre arranged the songs so it doesnt matter wat song i play first it always plays in the same order...until i add another song then it reshuffles the list
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The Demon: Serial Correlation
by mpeskin June 26, 2007 5:20 PM PDT
I first became aware of this problem back in my grad school days when I was working with semiconductor physics simulations that demanded very high quality random number generators. It turns out that most random number generating algorithms, including the default generators supplied by typical operating systems and on firmware chips, suck. They exhibit a problem called "serial correlation", which means that, in the aggregate, the sequence of generated number tend to fall into a predictable pattern.

So, for example, if you use one of these sucky generators to pick numbers between 1 and 1000, you may notice that every, say, 5th pick seems to be in the vicinity of 100, and so on. This is why the same artists keep getting visited repeatedly by your players, and though the pattern depends on the exact algorithm used by the generator as well as the total number of songs in the playlist, the problem is real.

The annoying thing is that simple software techniques to condition the output of a crappy random number generator and get rid of this problem have been around for years and years (see "Numerical Recipes in C"), very few software/firmware developers understand the problem, so it plagues all sorts of devices and programs that shuffle (not to mention other applications like computer games).
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Creative just can't... ugh... get it right!
by the-big-picture June 27, 2007 12:53 AM PDT
Their products always seem to be... off. Their stuff will be totally fantastic, even superior, in so many ways and totally suck in one particularly critical way (as Jasmine pointed out in this article). Creative has always kind of been this way, even back to the early days of SoundBlaster. They really missed the boat building a solid brand identity from the earlier times when they were a true vanguard of digital audio technology! They had players long before the iPod and nobody remembers them.

I just sorely want to see some serious competition for iPod!

Not that Apple needs competition to be innovative; they seem to have some real creative geniuses and engineers. Plus their marketing department is a total juggernaut!
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iriver clix mind of its own
by Nodspydog June 27, 2007 2:41 AM PDT
My iriver clix (4gb) has the shuffle problem also. It likes VNV Nation, Icon of Coil, and Apoptygma Berzerk more than any Japanese or American artist. Most of the time it will play four vnv songs in a row then Apoptygama for another three song ..etc. The weird thing is that just when I notice this, the clix completely changes the order again. So just when I start to enjoy the new shuffling the dumb thing returns to its crappy order.
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And another shuffle problem...
by chrispgriffin June 27, 2007 8:43 AM PDT
Using my Creative Zen Vision:M, I have also noticed that when I accidentally skip over a song I wanted to listen to and try to go back, depending on the "timing" of the button press, it will either go back to the song before the desired song, choose another random song, or maybe go to the song I want. Sound familiar to anyone?
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Try Rarely Heard vs. Shuffle
by Faztang June 27, 2007 11:38 AM PDT
I use the rarely heard playlist option on my zen micro and it works well
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Try Rarely Heard vs. Shuffle
by Faztang June 27, 2007 11:40 AM PDT
I use the rarely heard playlist (might be called have not heard recently, i forget) option on my zen micro and it works well
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They all need a little Karma
by Greg-G June 27, 2007 11:55 AM PDT
I know RIO is dead, but the Karma had some of the most innovative shuffle style options. The RIO DJ feature on the Karma would create random mixes based on a designated play time (ie.. 1 hr, 4 hr, etc...) and either Genre, Recording Year, Recording Decade, Frequency of Play, Newness of file, Infrequency of Play, or just a random selection. Additionally, it had cross fading selections on the player itself. After years of use, I see no bias in the generated shuffled play lists when a random selection is made. The RIO Karma is old dead tech, but other manufacturers have yet to incorporate some if its innovative and useful features.
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Shuffle is rpetty pitiful on Zen's
by x.killeddestiny.x June 27, 2007 2:38 PM PDT
I've had a Zen V the poor little guy didn't even last a week that was the last time I'll buy a creative mp3 player. Anyways its shuffle was decent but still meh. My Zen Xtra has a really bad shuffle to if you play all tracks in shuffle it'll play like 7 from the same artist in a row and its got a good 2500 songs on it. The PSP sucks too its shuffle is horid but at least you get a different artist every time exept once it played the same song twice in a row (that was just wierd) Sandisk is the worth though my old Sansa if you listened to it for a half an hour you could predict which songs were coming up and listening to it hours a day I basicaly could take off the headphones look away and stop on the song I watned. PEOPLE LEARN TO MAKE A OOD SHUFFLE FEATURE!
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What happened to Rio?
by renagade89 June 27, 2007 3:55 PM PDT
I agree that the Rio Karma was one of if not the best mp3 player I have ever had. My brother still uses his. But as for shuffling my Zen Stone does only play certain songs and never seems to play new ones I've added I'd like to hear more often. But other than that I've had 3 or 4 Creative mp3 players and been happy with all of them. I have a Zen Vision M right now that i love but i am excited for the stone plus.
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listening behaviors.
by kimo72 June 27, 2007 5:14 PM PDT
a couple of years ago, i got a 8GB Zen MicroPhoto. at the time i mostly listened to music by artists' albums. i now have a 8GB Zen V Plus and use playlists to drive listening order of the podcast shows i hear. i have never used the shuffle feature of either mp3 players because i don't like random listening but would be curious to learn whether my player has a favorite show(s). also, i'm constantly swapping out my mp3 files and editing my playlists on a daily basis, so i wonder how that would affect shuffle scheme. hehe... i'm going to have to test me some shuffle and see if it sucks as you have described. but then again... with my listening behavior as it is now, i will never use this feature. i love my Zen V Plus though!
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Glad to know it's not just me
by DMBFan41 June 28, 2007 6:40 AM PDT
I have a Zen Vision: M 30GB, and I noticed from day one that the shuffle seems to favor certain artists/songs. This is especially frustrating, as the whole reason I bought an mp3 player was for the ability to shuffle through my collection and listen to tracks that I never get a chance to hear. I understand that I'm not going to get truly randomizing shuffling, and with nearly 6000 tracks, it's not as severe, but it is noticeable.
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Hmm, ive never experienced this before Jasmine.
by kickenchicken June 28, 2007 2:26 PM PDT
well i did a few times with the Shuffle on my white 30gig vision:m , but after a few updates with firmware it seems to be fixed. after all, i only have 1230 songs on it. Btw: haha funny, its well known at epiZENter.net (largest Creative Zen fan site) that you do indeed like Zens.
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Why use shuffle at all?
by cyberDJ June 28, 2007 5:03 PM PDT
With Media Monkey, I can reorder a playlist and then synchronize that new order of songs into my Sansa player.
The Sansa now can play, in sequential mode, a randomized selection of songs.

While the order is the same everytime I listen to it, I will have tired of the playlist before I hear all of the songs.

I feel this is a good solution to using the players "quasi-random" shuffle opition.
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They all suck
by TreknologyNet July 2, 2007 4:49 AM PDT
Doesn't "shuffle" mean close your eyes to pick the next tape?
My MP3 when started in shuffle mode plays a random sequence of each track once. It then starts over again. If I interfere by stopping and restarting the unit, changing battery etc. that sequence is regenerated.
That's random enough for me.
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